00:21:14 Stefan Lutschinger: Hello everyone!
00:22:11 Edward Hasbrouck: Articles on biometrics and travel from the Identity Project:
Articles on travel-related issues of privacy, surveillance, and human rights from my personal blog:
00:22:59 Stefan Lutschinger: How do you feel today?
00:23:03 Stefan Lutschinger: https://www.affectiva.com
00:24:14 Caron Lyon: Greeting all from the East Midlands.
00:27:59 Zoe Camper: Greeting to all form Las Vegas! The sky is blue and it’s a wonderful day.
00:29:05 Nick Rosen: Is your face really yours? Everybody else sees it much more than you do
00:29:07 Joanna Bryson: I first met Satinder Gill at Cybersalon on 27 May 2004.
00:29:27 Joanna Bryson: As witness the cyber salon webpage
00:30:21 eva pascoe: Hi Joanna!
00:31:52 eva pascoe: Hi Russell !
00:33:07 Stefan Lutschinger: Good question Nick!
00:34:00 Derek Alton: Hi everyone, Derek Alton here from Canada but currently living in London England.
00:34:34 eva pascoe: Hi Derek we will bring you for discussion on Toronto in a mo!
00:34:52 Joanna Bryson: How do you make it transparent to people whether or not their images are being stored?
00:35:02 Stephen Oram: Can it recognise the same person leaving and thank them for wearing a mask if they have kept it on?
00:35:26 Derek Alton: I know as much about it as what you sent me today, so don’t think I can speak to it deeply.
00:36:24 Dan S: If you don’t store the data, how can you be sure that there is no bias in the dataset? Or what mechanism do you use to improve the accuracy of the facial recognition algorithm?
00:39:15 Zoe Camper: https://www.codedbias.com/
00:39:24 eva pascoe: UK airports are private btw
00:40:45 Dan S: I meant more in terms of face mask vs no face mark. But thanks for the link Zoe, that looks interesting!
00:48:00 Zoe Camper: Wow, had not thought about that as a result
00:49:14 Karolina Janicka: Questions are being sent through to the panellist but feel free to submit them via the Q&A chat too :)
00:49:39 Derek Alton: Whats the cost of opting out?
00:49:47 Dan S: I’d rather it wasn’t in place
00:49:56 Dan S: But it seems much more dangerous if some people choose to opt out
00:50:01 Joanna Bryson: Maybe this is a way to persuade us all to live more sustainably and fly & drive less.
00:50:07 Dan S: Then it becomes a question of tech literacy
00:50:15 Dan S: And leads to unfair bias
00:51:16 Dan S: Just look at NHS track and trace as a case point
00:52:14 Joanna Bryson: I’m just one chapter!
00:52:19 Joanna Bryson: (But it’s the first)
00:52:39 eva pascoe: good point Joanna!
00:52:47 Joanna Bryson: I’ll try to read it over Christmas, I haven’t even started!
00:54:36 Stefan Lutschinger: Second-order cybernetics!
00:55:01 eva pascoe: Good thinking Caron, stay on line after we will chat
00:55:31 Joanna Bryson: I wanted pictures in my book & I thought I was being properly retro, but then I found out Harari had already done it.
00:57:14 Dan S: Good point Steph! sounds like your suggesting it might increase systematic inequality
00:58:06 Joanna Bryson: Wow, I hadn’t heard this one kings X, awesome story.
00:58:08 Stefan Lutschinger: https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/16/16468452/screen-london-picadilly-circus-cars-targeted-ads-landsec
00:58:40 Stephen Oram: From a near-future scifi writer perspective that’s fascinating Steph
00:59:44 Derek Alton: You face the consequences of how people perceive your face more than anyone else.
00:59:51 Derek Alton: I think that’s what makes it yours
01:00:14 Joanna Bryson: What I say about personal data / GDPR is that it’s like flyover space. If people can have access to your data they can manipulate you as if they had access to your body physically and could push you.
01:01:30 Nick Rosen: Your appearance is not the same as your body
01:01:41 Derek Alton: Other – they are different but I feel uncomfortable with both
01:01:44 Joanna Bryson: So the GDPR is the EU protecting their citizens, just as airspace protects their citizens.
01:02:35 Joanna Bryson: And of course you belong to yourself, that’s how we organise our society along individual responsibility. It’s not that we’re truly autonomous, but that’s the foundation of our justice.
01:03:23 Nick Rosen: Not even celebrities can decide whether a database stores their image – only if it their image is used to endorse a product
01:04:17 eva pascoe: cross cultural differences?
01:04:44 Joanna Bryson: This isn’t culture it’s law — well, a special subset of culture :-)
01:05:57 Nick Rosen: Can facial recognition algos often recognise people underneath their masks?
01:06:02 Joanna Bryson: Please ask the question about how to be transparent about whether or not there are images held?
01:07:21 Dan S: Yeah how can you confirm accuracy?
01:07:26 Dan S: Of mask vs no mask
01:09:42 Derek Alton: What about all this facial collection being used as an enabler for deep fakes?
01:11:53 Dan S: Hmmm on that point, wouldn’t you class your face as unique biometric data – isn’t there a risk there of that data being compromised as a result of being commercialised?
01:11:59 Dan S: Also +1 to Dereks above point
01:12:28 Edward Hasbrouck: The global travel data cloud:
01:12:30 Edward Hasbrouck: https://papersplease.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PNR-ecosystem.png
01:14:03 Caron Lyon: AI Bar is genius
01:14:08 Dan S: Surely google analytics and crowdsourcing is just as effective
01:14:30 Dan S: Like the occupancy metric per hour
01:15:19 Caron Lyon: It purpose is to manage a 3D chaotic queue structure… AI at the BAR
01:15:20 Nick Rosen: Please can we get a copy of this chat to our emails? Lots of useful links here but you have to save them one at a time?
01:17:09 Nick Rosen: Lets take one of the biggest collection of facial data – Facebook – they give a valuable service for free and then in return they want to own the data – including your face – there seems to be a consensus that this is OK
01:17:14 Stefan Lutschinger: https://time.com/5520558/artificial-intelligence-racial-gender-bias/
01:18:10 Dan S: I appreciate that Caron, but I’m mainly targeting the necessity of techies to build more cool tools for the sake of it vs effectiveness of what they achieve.
01:18:29 Nick Rosen: Stephanie – Do you think Palantir shareholders are facing an ethical dilemma about unauthorised use of data – which combined and recombined by Palantir into ways that could; not have been predicted?
01:21:41 eva pascoe: check out hashtag The Dazzle Club
01:24:10 Caron Lyon: @Dan S Bar AI is surely on the effectiveness scale? I agree with not tech for gimmick sake.
01:26:22 Dan S: @Caron Lyon. Sure I think there’s value in analysing the queuing patterns for sure! But it seems to me that solving that issue is more a social issue rather than a tech one. I.e I’m from London and most bars at the high street are super crowded regardless of how you plan out your bar because of space limitations. Order from table instead has been super effective here during covid!
01:34:48 Caron Lyon: @Dan S So often at a bar tall male customer get served before I do. if the staff took note of an unbiased system it can only be a good thing. Queue jumping or bar cramming is one of my pet hates. But right now… hey COVID!
01:37:19 Dan S: Ahh now I see where you’re coming from – yeah that really sucks, I couldn’t agree more! Exactly why I mention order from table :)
01:38:29 Dan S: (+ just look at Whetherspoons -they were on this well before covid)
01:41:31 eva pascoe: I think John is on to something – compliance builds trust?
01:42:16 Stefan Lutschinger: https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9904-the_social_credit_system
01:45:48 Zoe Camper: Microsoft has a flight simulator that contains the whole world, Amazon has Horizon, who will own the digital world and how will we all belong in it? Who are the gatekeepers?
01:46:26 eva pascoe: good point Zoe- digital is first come first served, it may be same with faces…
01:46:54 Zoe Camper: Yes, I think you are right, so perhaps it’s up to us to be first in something
01:47:10 eva pascoe: back to being pioneers then!
01:47:41 Zoe Camper: Yup :^)
01:48:55 eva pascoe: Good find Derek! thanks for that ref!
01:49:22 eva pascoe: Thanks Cybersalon!
01:49:59 Cybersalon: I suspect Stephen will be too humble to post this here, so I will ;-) https://stephenoram.net/
01:53:17 Zoe Camper: Book out of stock in USA Amazon, will add it to reading list, thank you.
01:57:39 Zoe Camper: That is a powerful way to put it, we cannot go back.
01:58:52 Wael Elazab: Its like weapons/arms – rush to tech is for money?
02:00:49 Dan S: YES Edward!!
02:01:00 Zoe Camper: Great discussion, thank you. I think a powerful message is that tech does not solve everything and nor should it.
02:01:39 Dan S: There was actually law that passed in Australia or NZ that was a good case point for this
02:02:31 Dan S: I can’t remember exactly but it was something to do with, if you make an audit you had to give an appropriate reason. Which made a lot of banking and accountancy firms using ML algorithms to panic
02:02:54 Dan S: Because most of their decision making was based on a black box
02:02:56 eva pascoe: Yes Zoe, tech will not save us but may make us think and push new legislations
02:03:10 Zoe Camper: Yes
02:03:28 Zoe Camper: Very important. We cannot go back :^)
02:03:56 Wael Elazab: it’s a very western thing, particularly north American – to “trust in govt”
02:04:55 Wael Elazab: so many countries, sure, lower socio-economic, but the ppl trust in themselves
02:05:23 Zoe Camper: :^))))
02:06:20 Joanna Bryson: But we have to talk about the fact that the # and #2 best pandemic prepared countries according to the WHO were able to elect governments who chose not to execute that preparedness. This is probably about both inequality AND digital.
02:06:27 eva pascoe: agree Wael, as a child of communism, I am fairly trust-proof as gov is concerned…
02:06:31 Joanna Bryson: Sorry, numbers 1 & 2
02:06:36 Wael Elazab: Greece, Italy .. many other Mediterranean countries … the ppl are born entrepreneurs
02:06:55 Wael Elazab: they cannot trust govt for anything, cert not support
02:07:20 Zoe Camper: Thank you all!
02:08:14 Wael Elazab: cheers everyone :-)
02:08:14 Caron Lyon: Thank you ALL Panellists