Home / Event Chats / Digital Sovereignty – Chat saved from 1st Dec Cybersalon Event 

Digital Sovereignty – Chat saved from 1st Dec Cybersalon Event 

18:27:25 From David Birch to All panelists : I forgot – which side I am on? Am I for data sovereignty or against it?
18:28:22 From Birgitta Jonsdottir to All panelists : you should be against everything but only if you have the halo
18:30:40 From Stefan Lutschinger : Quis confluxus hodie
Cybersalonorum?
E longinquo convenerunt,
Protinusque successerunt
In commune forum.
18:30:57 From Wael Elazab : Hi All :-)
18:31:08 From Peter Hodgson Friedrichs to All panelists : Good evening all
18:31:39 From Alonso León Jónsdóttir to All panelists : Hi :)
18:31:41 From Jo Mosaku : Hi All…
18:32:32 From Cybersalon : Hello all. please feel free to chat alongside the discussion here in the chat. If you have questions to direct to our guests for Q&A, please use the Q&A button below the main window instead. Welcome to Cybersalon :-)
18:32:43 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : hi all
18:34:13 From Stefan Lutschinger : My grandparents are from Stratford, Ontario.
18:34:45 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Nice, my family lives in New Hamburg which is just up the road from Stratford
18:34:49 From Stefan Lutschinger : Great to see fellow Canadians around.
18:37:10 From eva pascoe : Hi Zoe, hello to Las Vegas team!
18:37:42 From Zoe Camper to All panelists : Hello!
18:38:30 From David Birch to All panelists : Twitter @dgwbirch
18:38:47 From Birgitta Jonsdottir to All panelists : @birgittaj
18:38:52 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Im @DerekAlton on twitter, usually tweet about stuff related to transforming government for a digital age
18:39:49 From David Birch to All panelists : Yes I am @dgwbirch
18:40:17 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Shouldn’t citizens = government
18:40:37 From Cybersalon : David’s Twitter account, for those who’d like to follow is @dgwbirch :-)
18:40:38 From Derek Alton to All panelists : In theory… I mean I would argue that in its purest form that is what it suppose to be
18:40:52 From Priya Prakash : Excellent – thanks Eva
18:41:58 From Priya Prakash : We talk a lot about rights – what about responsibilities and education for people to value their data – eg we have this https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-12-01/column-privacy-money-for-data-sharing
18:42:22 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Optimistic yes… young… relative
18:42:58 From Birgitta Jonsdottir to All panelists : x and z will fix it all

18:43:29 From Stefan Lutschinger : I think it was quite original of No 10 using digital steganography to congratulate Joe Biden on his win.

18:44:06 From David Birch to All panelists : We are post-responsibility. If I ran Question Time, I would cut the microphone to anyone who talks about the common sense of the people and never invite them back. We have to provide the infrastructure and make people use it – data seat-belts not data motivational posters
18:44:31 From Birgitta Jonsdottir to All panelists : exactly
18:44:45 From Priya Prakash : pastedGraphic.pngpastedGraphic.png
18:45:04 From Priya Prakash : Nice one @Stefan
18:45:58 From eva pascoe : feel free to post questions to QandAs
18:46:05 From Mark Simpkins : *waves* Priya Prakash
18:46:09 From David Birch : Derek is spot on – and we must start with an infrastructure that delivers both privacy and security.
18:46:14 From Jim Killock : Government has intervened around infrastructure for surveillance reasons quite heavily
18:46:15 From Zoe Camper to All panelists : Having bolted the stable door, how are we going to get any kind of personal sovereignty? Govs don’t own the data companies do.
18:46:17 From Priya Prakash : DCMS has done a consultation on the National Data Strategy they conducted recently https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-national-data-strategy/national-data-strategy
18:47:15 From Priya Prakash : Yay @Mark Simpkins in the room. Good conversations in order pastedGraphic_1.png
18:47:44 From eva pascoe : Hi Mark!!
18:47:57 From Mark Simpkins : HI Eva
18:48:33 From Zoe Camper to All panelists : Shoshana Zuboff says to have one Nest  ‘home’ sensor requires the owner to effectively sign 1000 contracts.
18:48:46 From Priya Prakash : interesting that UK companies like Yoti have been pushing digital identity with transparency https://www.yoti.com
18:49:08 From Priya Prakash : <3 self-serve

18:49:11 From David Birch : Yes, shifting perspective away from identity and toward credentials is fundamental to any practical solution – although I’m sceptical about self-sovereignty to be honest
18:49:48 From Mark Simpkins : the use if Trust again, a loaded and confused term
18:50:02 From Priya Prakash : Good point @David Birch – goes back to my first question of knowing the value of your identity, and education
18:50:17 From Priya Prakash : Education for people to value their data

18:50:19 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : Government and its institutions can also be seen as systems rather than entities
18:50:38 From Priya Prakash : MyDex – that rings a bell
18:50:46 From Mark Simpkins : There is a very ‘western’ view of what digital identity is in SSI (institutions)
18:51:25 From Priya Prakash : Why be a citizen of any entity if everything is remote – the concept of national identity continues to crumble IMHO
18:51:25 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : 51 % majority that blockchain requires sounds a lot like democracy to me
18:51:34 From Stefan Lutschinger : The blue Facebook passport.
18:52:00 From Wael Elazab : need ‘none of above’
18:52:01 From Derek Alton to All panelists : @simon That assumes that everyone has an equal vote.  This is almost never the case in blockchain systems
18:52:20 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Most blockchain systems are controlled by a surprisingly small number of actors
18:52:24 From Zoe Camper to All panelists : Was It Saudi Arabia that gave citizenship to Sophia?
18:52:37 From Priya Prakash : we face a governance problem
18:52:44 From Priya Prakash : With Big tech
18:52:44 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : The CPC has a higher trust rating from Chinese citizens than Western governments get from their voters. https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf

18:52:46 From David Birch : Surely we are citizens not of the world but of multiple, overlapping communities

18:52:56 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : there should be one more question: i want to look after my data.
18:53:05 From Priya Prakash : exactly – great point @David Birch
18:53:13 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Heck yes, Priya. and enforcement. p.s. hello!
18:53:16 From Paul Wolferstan : Yes, Birgitta! Agree with you!

18:53:21 From Stefan Lutschinger : Data sovereignty as second-order cybernetics, with Niklas Luhmann.
18:53:26 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Exactly Birgitta!!
18:54:11 From David Birch : The Chinese government has delivered rising living standards to 700 million people, it is no surprise to see strong support from the average person. We used to like our government when it delivered 150 years of rising living standards starting from around 1830

18:54:12 From Mark Simpkins : absolutely a significant loss in the belief that Government can manage this on behalf of citizens, but as @Priya says, if these credentials are what I use to navigate the socialtechnical landscape the idea of a State/Nation crumbles

18:55:34 From Priya Prakash : Look at Track & Trace- UK Govt spends millions on dodgy contractors and then hands its over to Apple Google for doing the job as Govt lack the operational and implementation competence
18:55:44 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : @mark what is left if we don’t trust government, it just leaves at mercy of silicon valley

18:55:47 From Wendy M Grossman to All panelists : YES to Yes, Minister
18:55:52 From Derek Alton to All panelists : What about Borgen?
18:56:17 From David Birch : The Thick Of It and Borgen are the best political education. Oh, and playing World of Warcraft.
18:56:33 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : x D

18:56:39 From Priya Prakash : If my data is going to be on Google and iCloud for longer than Boris Johnson’s Govt lasting in power – I rather find better governance models with Big Tech than UK Govt
18:57:16 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : governance is the province of government no?
18:57:38 From Derek Alton to All panelists : +1 to machine readable laws
18:57:41 From Derek Alton to All panelists : #rulesascode
18:57:43 From Priya Prakash : Excellent point @Birgitta Jonsdottir – machine readable laws
18:57:49 From David Birch : I am a big fan of machine-readable regulation (or, as we call it in financial services, robs-handbooks)
18:57:51 From Stefan Lutschinger : The solution is to run legislation through Turnitin’s plagiarism checker.
18:57:53 From Mark Simpkins : How many governments have been and gone, changed since the start of Google, or Microsoft / Apple event
18:58:11 From Derek Alton to All panelists : There is a movement around rules as code within governments across the world but it is still a fringe thing but hopefully we can make it mainstream
18:58:26 From David Birch : Frankly, Deep Mind would choke on our current COVID Tier rules.
18:58:32 From Wael Elazab : good idea Birgitta – can there also be non-peer review
18:58:44 From Wael Elazab : people the laws are intended for?
18:58:49 From Mark Simpkins : and we know that policy and regulation and even understanding inside most of these governmental bodies is slow compared to the companies
18:58:50 From Priya Prakash : pastedGraphic.pngpastedGraphic.png @David Birch – true
18:59:27 From David Birch : Lawyers are against rules that can be coded, they depend on rules that need to be resolved in court by argument and precedent. That’s way laws of full of phrases such as “reasonable care”.
19:00:09 From Priya Prakash : As a designer – I always found speaking to legal to make a EULA work for a user so they actually understand their rights – a losing battle. It was more to protect legal needs than user need in understanding their rights

19:00:21 From Derek Alton to All panelists : I think sometime you need to do work on the inside but other times when things are stuck on the inside, I punt it out and find a NFP or some civil society group to champion it and push government from the outside
19:01:27 From Mark Simpkins : yep, we have been thinking about ‘Legal Design’ for the Creative Passport to try and drive this @Priya Prakash , though the lawyers always have problems with this
19:01:48 From eva pascoe : agree with Derek – Civic Society is more powerful than people think!
19:01:48 From David Birch : I don’t want to stray into politics, but surely the way forward is to reduce the role of the state, so that the impact of lobbying is similarly reduced.
19:01:58 From Zoe Camper : Great way t put it, laundering
19:01:59 From Priya Prakash : @Mark Simpkins – great idea. Legal design is so so needed
19:02:01 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Ira was mentioned earlier, here is a blog she wrote about creating change through three types of roles: https://medium.com/@shevski/when-movements-go-mainstream-9c73d5613927
19:02:26 From Derek Alton to All panelists : @David I don’t know if I agree with that.  Government is meant to serve as a counter weight to the influence of other actors like business.
19:02:43 From Priya Prakash : Creative Passport , Creative Commons, we need Data Commons with user sovereignty from Govt
19:02:59 From Derek Alton to All panelists : Power still flows it just moves into places that don’t have the scrutiny and accountability that government has
19:03:05 From Mark Simpkins : Some people at CSM started working on it, but I don’t know where that went, I wanted to have a Legal Design Unconference but time and brain space :P
19:03:40 From David Birch : It’s worth spending oodles lobbying your mate in the Cabinet to award you a PPE contract if there’s only one PPE contract.
19:04:09 From Priya Prakash : Ohh..given that lawyers are increasingly going to be *allegedly* replaced by AI – they may need to join forces for professional survival
19:04:42 From eva pascoe : lawyers defo under pressure!
19:04:48 From David Birch : Lawyers will be fine. The first profession to be eradicated by next generation technology will be auditors. Ta ta E&Y.
19:04:53 From Derek Alton to All panelists : @David I agree with the issue, I just disagree with the solution.  WE need to address and weaken the powers of lobbying.  Reducing government doesn’t do that, it just hides it.
19:05:01 From Mark Simpkins : This is true, I believe in the legal space there are ML systems that can ‘replace’ paralegal work, but companies have difficulty billing for time against that
19:05:24 From Derek Alton : @David I agree with the issue, I just disagree with the solution.  WE need to address and weaken the powers of lobbying.  Reducing government doesn’t do that, it just hides it.

19:05:28 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Yes, David, the law is always there to be proven. Though in practice, this is often prevented by application of the letter of the law rather than the spirit. Law defends the law, not justice.
19:05:54 From Stefan Lutschinger : We can upload published draft legal texts to Turnitin and Originality Report will often reveal lobbyism by matching text sequences and online sources.

19:06:13 From Mark Simpkins : Peoples Councils on Algorithms!
19:06:20 From Priya Prakash : we have two old ancient systems – democracy and law which haven’t innovated in our current data driven culture – both are reactive instead of proactive . And when in doubt – someone in those departments will invoke blockchain and/or ledger technologies to be the savior. Its so predictable

19:06:43 From David Birch : Would telling Parliament help? I doubt there’s a single MP who knows how a microwave works, let alone the internet.
19:06:49 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Machine encoded bias  (sigh)
19:06:54 From Priya Prakash : pastedGraphic.pngpastedGraphic.png
19:06:56 From Mark Simpkins : @Priya Prakash yep, my inbox is full of blockchains that will save us all….
19:07:03 From Stefan Lutschinger : Right to Repair!
19:07:16 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : @Priya – Bourgeois states are republics not democracies.
19:07:27 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : yes, and right to repurpose

19:07:33 From David Birch : Our democracy isn’t that old, really. We’re still in beta.

19:07:59 From Priya Prakash : @Mark Simpkins Yes – its the tech  equivalent of I can make your p* body part grow by X inches type viagra spam
19:08:00 From Mark Simpkins : I think that the UAT process is a bit lacking
19:08:06 From Derek Alton : At the heart here is an issue around Intellectual property
19:08:22 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : has true democracy 0fully informed electorate )ever been tried?

19:08:26 From Richard Hod to All panelists : Jim, can you link to the treaty clauses about open code and right to repair?!

19:08:55 From Derek Alton : Rufus Pollock has some interesting things to say on this: https://openrevolution.net/media/open-revolution.pdf
19:09:05 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : Universal suffrage for infrequent elections is a mid-20th century achievement.
19:09:10 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Broken UAT, and BUG reporting inconsistent
19:09:11 From Stefan Lutschinger : How will you spend your Brexit dividend?
19:09:27 From Lucy Wills to All panelists : Stephan! I just bark laughed

19:09:36 From David Birch : We should take a hatchet to IP law. Restore copyright to its welfare maximising level (14 years, if memory serves)
19:09:50 From Derek Alton : Those muscles only work if the people will back it up
19:10:23 From David Birch : Democracy is particular poor at thinking about the long term Jim.

19:10:24 From Priya Prakash : @Derek Alton – please remind IP to China – they have a different view on copying. One discussion I had with a Chinese investor – who said copying is what nature does to survive. It was a different POV – quite refreshing, I may not agree – still interesting
19:10:41 From Derek Alton : Its easy to blame politicians, most politicians are hamstrung by how power flows in the systems they are stuck
19:10:48 From David Birch : I’m not against democracy, it’s just not clear to me why _everyone_ gets a vote.
19:11:02 From Lucy Wills : Right to repair and right to repurpose!

19:11:07 From Stefan Lutschinger : If would be much more transparent to vote for multinational conglomerates.
19:11:07 From Derek Alton : @Priya, yes, china is very interesting (scary but interesting)
19:11:18 From Mark Simpkins : @Priya Prakash – a POV that does actually have some truth to it
19:11:36 From Priya Prakash : Yay @Lucy Willis in room too pastedGraphic_2.png
19:12:35 From David Birch : Why do you want civil society to provide input Jim? Civil society thinks that Bill Gates is going to use vaccines to inject microchips onto people to control them via 5G.

19:13:01 From Lucy Wills : People’s councils on algorithm- waves flag for WE and AI https://weandai.org/
19:13:21 From Lucy Wills : @Priya <3
19:13:30 From Priya Prakash : Yep – Libra from FB will be fascinating
19:13:57 From Stefan Lutschinger : Have you played Data Dealer? Turn the tables! Become a data dealer and get all the dirty details on your friends, neighbours and the rest of the world. https://datadealer.com/
19:14:22 From Zoe Camper : Don’t really like any of the options :^)
19:14:26 From Priya Prakash : Great link @Stefan Lutschinger
19:14:31 From Maria Michalis : same
19:14:53 From Derek Alton : @David Civil Society is not uniform, there are many different opinions, I would argue that it is not democratic, in practice it is driven by a few big personalities
19:15:39 From Zoe Camper : :^))))) That’s funny
19:15:56 From Richard Hod to All panelists : lol @Eva’s butler

19:17:06 From Priya Prakash : Great @Zoe Camper here too – this feels like a brilliant pub @Eva where you jump into many folks you haven’t caught up with ages. Thanks for organizing <3
19:17:15 From Priya Prakash : *bump

19:19:01 From Alonso León Jónsdóttir to All panelists : I was kicked on the streets in front of a camera, reported, and case dismissed….

19:19:11 From eva pascoe : Unicorn Coins – blockchain in the sky!
19:19:14 From Priya Prakash : @Eva please take-over Wetherspoons – make it tech, with better conversations and tipple https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/16/wetherspoons-hit-by-95m-loss-as-covid-crisis-drives-down-sales
19:19:40 From Mark Simpkins : CyberSpoons
19:19:48 From Cybersalon : Evaspoons *bump
19:19:52 From Zoe Camper : :^))))
19:20:08 From Priya Prakash : pastedGraphic.pngpastedGraphic.png
19:20:26 From Lucy Wills : I know that poem
19:20:39 From Zoe Camper : Wear-theyre-spoons
19:21:31 From Zoe Camper : Rubbish at spelling :^)
19:22:17 From Stefan Lutschinger : Freigeld https://monneta.org/en/freigeld/
19:22:42 From Priya Prakash : What is a community these days? Someone please help share their definition/understanding? I get cults/tribes…have lost the concept of community
19:22:45 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : best living uk poet is Joelle Taylor….
19:23:40 From eva pascoe : Midland Coin for Jim!
19:24:06 From Zoe Camper : Identity can still be found where datasets are overlaid.

19:24:11 From Derek Alton : Doesn’t that make international trade so much harder
19:24:37 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : who should have access to layers and who gets to choose access limits and such?

19:24:50 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : We are so bad at managing multiple currencies though, its still so painful to pay between countries..
19:24:53 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : My grandmother told me that there was only gold as the only form of money in Europe before the 1914-18 war

19:24:57 From eva pascoe : Derek – you just need interoperability, Ira can sort it out
19:25:03 From Priya Prakash : Ooh..nice one @Birgitta Jonsdottir. I am also partial to Kae Tempest. ( Will remind myself  to try not mentioning Bjork when chatting to you – I am sure everyone refers to her at some point of time in a conversation involving Iceland – or that in my assumption- apologies )
19:25:31 From Zoe Camper : I am just a #hash that’s all I am going to give you.
19:25:33 From Stefan Lutschinger : The Knochengeld (bone money) experiment in Berlin: http://www.ozwei.net/knochengeld/
19:26:12 From Derek Alton : But then you lose the benefits that come from globalization

19:26:33 From Priya Prakash : Great book @Birgitta if you have come across it before – pls ignore. http://thestack.org

19:26:48 From Priya Prakash : Why did Brixton pound not take off folks?
19:26:50 From JOHN HORSLEY : I introduced @eva to a guy who has created the Bristol pound
19:26:58 From Lucy Wills : digital Tobin Tax?
19:26:59 From Derek Alton : Thank you
19:27:14 From Lucy Wills : and let’s not forget  LETS
19:27:30 From Stefan Lutschinger : Hackney is quite huge.
19:27:34 From Stefan Lutschinger : And diverse.
19:27:42 From Mark Simpkins : @priya Prakash things like Brixton Pound / LETS do get weird when they scale and HMRC get interested

19:27:43 From David Birch : Cryptocurrencies provide a platform to turbocharge LETS into true currencies
19:27:43 From Derek Alton : But we are becoming more digital.  More and more transactions are moving online.  How does this apply to the digital realm
19:27:52 From Jim Killock : did LETS get absorbed by local crypto?

19:27:55 From Priya Prakash : 10 years ago article https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/21/brixton-pound-local-currency
19:28:02 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : thanks Priya, will have a look at it.
19:28:17 From Mark Simpkins : yeah, I think LETS are now Coins in crypto and, hmm
19:28:24 From Stefan Lutschinger : Our bodies should generate money by taxing our data flows.
19:28:40 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : crypto still needs to figure out its scaling issue though, its ironic that it doesn’t scale well at all

19:28:42 From Lucy Wills : LETS relied on MASSES of unpaid labour. but tech could fix that??

19:28:48 From Alonso León Jónsdóttir to All panelists : this is what they doing in Spain: lol https://www.airbus-bizlab.com/project/urban-data-eye/info

19:29:16 From Lucy Wills : Stefan, I read that as our physical bodies. Implants lol
19:29:18 From Priya Prakash : Great point @Mark Simpkins on HMRC getting interested when things take off at scale

19:29:41 From Mark Simpkins : As an Elegant Cyborg my personal data is treated as a flaneurean transactional object, a fetish

19:30:10 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : Marx explains why money cranks can’t solve the contradictions of capitalist production. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/grundrisse/ch02.htm

19:30:12 From Stefan Lutschinger : Hahahaha
19:30:18 From Priya Prakash : Transparency ≠ Explainability @Jim Killock?

19:32:28 From David Birch : We need different communities operating at different levels to replace the monolithic nation-state which is, in essence, a temporary arrangement.
19:32:50 From Stephen Oram : Do any of the panel have any thoughts on community DATA TRUSTS where (as I understand it) the ‘community’ owns everyone’s data and ‘trade’ it on behalf of the community. A bit like pension funds.
19:33:59 From Justin Fielder : That is an interesting point David that devolution moves the need to control and tax money, unless you do it like we have done in the UK. BUT, then to my point, there is so much about UKPLC that needs national control (NHS Cancer Care being just one example where scale makes a big difference). So if we want to move control down to smaller and smaller entities then how do you solve that?

19:34:41 From JOHN HORSLEY : wouldn’t mind answering that myself lol
19:34:51 From Justin Fielder : Stephen – execept pension funds almost never ask the people they are investing on behalf of what they want to do. Which is why lots of pensions are being moved to self managed….
19:35:33 From Justin Fielder : Community is a great way of managing your data IF they don’t become the same as pension trustees IMHO
19:36:03 From Stephen Oram : Justin – probably a poor example to use to explain the idea…
19:39:05 From Derek Alton : Jane Jacobs did most of her best work in Toronto Canada… :D
19:39:12 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : :)
19:39:35 From Derek Alton : Same rules?  Interop depends on it does it not?
19:40:16 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : The reason why cities create communities is how the human brain gets spatial more then abstract – you understand neighbourhood – once it gets to a value like “Liberalism” – it gets tricky

19:43:36 From Derek Alton : I wonder how identify is shifting because of Covid
19:44:32 From David Birch : Cities are engines of creativity and economic growth, so they will flourish despite COVID I am sure.

19:45:01 From Derek Alton : What about New Zealand?
19:45:07 From JOHN HORSLEY : i am I have estonian digital citizenship
19:45:20 From Lucy Wills : just the one?
19:45:36 From Derek Alton : Free beaver tails for all who come to Canada
19:45:43 From Derek Alton : And maple syrup
19:45:49 From Derek Alton : And everyone gets a moose
19:45:49 From Mark Simpkins : indeed, actually I am a citizen of the Planet Ocean.
19:46:09 From David Jennings to All panelists : I’ve applied for e-residency of Estonia so I can set up a company there – that’s the only way I can keep my main client post Brexit

19:46:55 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Ah @Sarah Thelwall in the room as well pastedGraphic_2.png
19:47:20 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Great idea @David Jennings
19:47:22 From Derek Alton : Once we move to e-citizenship it becomes easier for people to vote with their virtual feet.

19:47:48 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : Apple is working for the NSA!!

19:47:56 From Alonso León Jónsdóttir to All panelists : Antartica!!!

19:48:08 From David Birch : I just checked on Transparency International and Iceland is only the 11th least corrupt country now
19:48:30 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Nice factoid @David Birch
19:48:40 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : that is more realistic we were nr 1 in 2006 or 7
19:49:02 From Derek Alton : Here is the Wendy Hall article: https://www.cigionline.org/sites/default/files/documents/Paper%20no.206web.pdf
19:49:17 From eva pascoe to Cybersalon (Privately) : thanks Derek!

19:49:49 From Mark Simpkins : ive had that from Chinese students
19:50:01 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Good point @Richadr Barbrook
19:50:19 From Mark Simpkins : they have different values around concepts such as privacy, social contracts etc

19:50:54 From Mark Simpkins : as I started on this chat, SSI and digital ID is another ‘Silicon Valley’ approach on what Identity is

19:51:36 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Highly recommend back reading on Amitav Ghosh’s Great Derangement to understand the Why behind these Values https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Derangement-Climate-Unthinkable-Lectures/dp/022652681X/ref=asc_df_022652681X/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310979557093&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5334907367948002442&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045941&hvtargid=pla-360422188448&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

19:51:49 From Derek Alton : Hi everyone, thanks so much for joining today and for the great conversations in the chat.  Alas I need to duck out.  Canada is calling :P

19:51:57 From David Birch to All panelists : When we lived in bucolic idyll (before the industrial revolution and capitalism etc) we had no privacy whatsoever.

19:52:05 From Derek Alton : Happy to keep the conversation going on twitter @DerekAlton
19:52:09 From Derek Alton : Bye everyone
19:52:16 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : thanks Derek
19:52:21 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Thanks Derek
19:53:42 From Zoe Camper : Got to go, thank you very much, great conversation!

19:55:50 From Cybersalon : #cryptocod – I knew we’d get there :-)

19:56:12 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : I got to leave too – need to feed kids and cat :) thank you all. p.s why doesn’t UK  join EEA – thank you all for a great convo – see you all surfing.
19:56:56 From Priya Prakash to All panelists : Its great when its agrarian – what about a knowledge economy?

19:57:14 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : @Birgitta – England will be using the euro, inside the Schengen Agreement and have EU flags on all public buildings within the decade.
19:57:25 From Birgitta Jonsdottir : haha

20:04:22 From David Birch to All panelists : Birgitta is completely correct: MPs do not reflect society.

20:05:22 From Richard Barbrook to All panelists : In Ancient Athens, sortition was democracy and elections were oligarchy.

20:07:04 From Alonso León Jónsdóttir : Thanks you all really inspiring ?LUV
20:07:10 From Dan S : Thanks very much guys!
20:07:11 From David Birch to All panelists : Democracy as a governance model is over, and digitising it won’t m make any difference.

20:09:40 From Simon Sarginson to All panelists : right im off to diner great session!

20:12:17 From Dan S to All panelists : I’m loving that cat Justin xD
20:12:41 From eva pascoe : Dan S get out of those pyjamas!
20:13:33 From Dan S to All panelists : Hahaha not far off, wearing the tartan pants atm :D
20:20:04 From Dan S to All panelists : Yeah they’re not taking many new contracts at the moment (network rail)
20:20:37 From Dan S to All panelists : Most of our new gov funding coming through grant proposals
20:25:06 From Mark Simpkins to All panelists : sorry I need to go, the kids need cajoling to sleep :) lovely to see you all again …
20:25:43 From eva pascoe : Lovely to see you Mark! Let me know if you want to chat about projects next year, we are programming next year events!
20:25:55 From Mark Simpkins to All panelists : will do :)
20:37:06 From Karolina Janicka to All panelists : I’m gonna dash! Thanks for a great evening everyone! Hopefully see you soon in person! :)
20:40:26 From eva pascoe : By Karo!!! Thankx!
20:42:32 From Dan S to All panelists : Lovely to see you all guys

About Karolina Janicka

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